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Author Topic: Anybody else still running with 13 in wheels?  (Read 8351 times)

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jaw1962

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Anybody else still running with 13 in wheels?
« on: Jul 05, 2014, 07:18:02 PM »

Do to an unforseen issue with my front end suspension, I am in need of two new tires.  The rear tires are in really good shape so I was hoping to replace just the two.  The tires on the car are no longer made.  Firestone FR721 size 175/80r13.  Not even the Firestone website has the size I need listed.  98% of the tires that turn up in internet searches for that size tire are trailer tires.  So the thought has crossed my mind to just replace all four with a different size, maybe 70r13.  Long story short, what size are you running with?  Whitewalls yes or no?
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Jim
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Terry L. Rahn

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Re: Anybody else still running with 13 in wheels?
« Reply #1 on: Jul 05, 2014, 11:06:45 PM »

Jaw1962,

Maxxis still has the 185/80R13 tires. Last one that I know of that are passenger, not trailer tires. The 175 is too small a diameter and increases the rpm on the highway. Original 6.00 and 6.50 tires were 24.5" diameter. The 185/80R13 is equivalent to the 6.50-13, but are 24.7" diameter. The 175/80R13 was 24", but as you discovered no longer made.

I use the 185/80R13 white stripe tires. I know the 13" are being phased out and Coker apparently has the molds now at exorbitant prices. One Coker tire costs as much as all four on our 61 Falcon. The 14" four lug rims and tires are an option, but I have at least a dozen sets of wheelcovers and bottle caps for 13" and none for 14". I have some of the early 14" with the three lug hubcap knobs and some of the later 14" with the four hubcap knobs. The early uses the 9" caps like the Falcon, and later uses 10" caps.

Attached is a picture of our 61 Tudor Deluxe with new 13" Firestone tires in 2010. I am using the 61 Futura wheelcovers on the rims currently, but do have the deluxe and couple other design wheelcovers I could also use. I also have the aluminum slotted mag look trim that can be used with the bottlecaps if I wish.

Terry L. Rahn
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oldgrezmonke

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Re: Anybody else still running with 13 in wheels?
« Reply #2 on: Jul 06, 2014, 12:23:42 AM »

Terry , when did you last check on the Maxxis tires - their website does not show any 185/80/13 tires or even 175/80/13 but do show 165/80/13 [I also found 165/80/13 on the Sears website in a different brand] .
jaw1962 , I still have 175/80/13" [whitewall but blackwall turned to outside{don't like whitewalls}] tires but have been gathering 14" wheels for an eventual change over ; I figure mine have 1-2 years wear left . 70 series tires in 13" are designed for wider wheels than the original rims so not a good choice ; when I got my Falcon it had some 195/70/13s on the rear and it felt loose at any and every change in direction no matter how small - wiggling and jiggling all over the place . The 165/80/13 mentioned above would be a good fit on the front rims and you could move your good 175s to the rear . Have you looked on Ebay ? I found these -  http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Sunny-SN620-165-80-R13-83T-TL-BSW-TIRES-/221485381073?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Tires&hash=item33918eb5d1&vxp=mtr or these [?] if you want whitewalls http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Milestar-MS75-175-80-R13-86S-TL-TIRES-/321404969826?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Tires&hash=item4ad53aa362&vxp=mtr - the specs indicate passenger, not trailer , tires . You could message them to be sure .
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First car - 1961 Falcon Deluxe 4door , had 1968-73
Present - 1963 1/2 Falcon 4door base model , since 2009 ,
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Terry L. Rahn

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Re: Anybody else still running with 13 in wheels?
« Reply #3 on: Jul 06, 2014, 01:07:38 AM »

OldGrezMonke,

I will never run the tiny 165 or 175 on any Falcon. The 185 has a narrow enough tread and section width as it is. The rpm is high enough on the highway with the 24.7" tires and we even changed to a 3.10 gear ratio to travel highway speeds at a lower rpm, that the 3.56 did not allow without stressing the engine. Using a smaller diameter would negate that change. I would go a larger diameter, not smaller.

Rim width is just one factor in sidewall flex. Some 13" rims were 4", 4.5", and 5", depending on the model. The 4.5" is what I mostly have from parts cars. The 7.00-13 and C78-13 is equivalent to the 195/75R13 tires. I used that optional size for years on a 61 wagon with no problems. Those were dropped and I had only one size to choose from, and those are being phased out.

Radials were always roly poly from the time they were introduced. Age is a factor in the flex as radials break down in a 5 year span. The manufacturers touted radial as a smoother riding and better handling tire originally. Of course they never could solve the sidewall belt breakage that contributed to the smoother ride, so the decision to have shorter sidewall was made, which sacrificed the ride quality. Handling and traction was not the radial design being better than the bias ply, but rather a change in the rubber compounds being used.

The sidewall is a personal choice. The blackwall was the bargain tire for many years, often the base tire on a new vehicle. Until the wedge and slug bodies, the whitewall enhanced the appearance of many vehicles. White letter tires on the 60's muscle cars accomplished the same appearance. Blackwalls were only to save cost for many people. I never liked wide whites as being sold today. The Falcon only had a inch wide whitewall originally, which was still on my first 61 wagon in 69. I never seen any of that style sold anywhere in the 70's through the 90's though, just the half and three quarter stripes. Those still look nice to me though.

I checked about 3 or 4 weeks ago and the 185/80R13 was listed. I understand that Maxxis has a short run and then sells what they have in stock. If that size is still in demand, they will have another short run. I guess the only accurate info, would be to contact the company directly and hope to get a knowledgeable person on the phone. There are quite few of the 60's vehicles that use that size, so the potential is there for some sales. Many have looked and found alternatives, so the sales are fewer than what the potential is. Maxxis will probably drop that size like everyone else.

An even tougher quest, is locating a true snow tire with the old town and country tread pattern that I used for many years. That tread pattern with the winter tire rubber compound, would improve traction considerably. That is a pipe dream though. :)

Terry L. Rahn
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oldgrezmonke

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Re: Anybody else still running with 13 in wheels?
« Reply #4 on: Jul 06, 2014, 08:22:51 AM »

Terry , I see we're going to have to agree to disagree . I have had an entirely different experience with radial tires . Having driven the same vehicles in the past with both bias ply and radial tires , I would not use bias ply tires if offered a free lifetime supply . Anyway , the bottom line is most of us cannot afford the high priced specialty vendors' offerings [and one of those no longer offers 165 , 175 or 185 80/13 tires because they can't get a steady supply either] anyway so we have to adapt .
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First car - 1961 Falcon Deluxe 4door , had 1968-73
Present - 1963 1/2 Falcon 4door base model , since 2009 ,
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Terry L. Rahn

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Re: Anybody else still running with 13 in wheels?
« Reply #5 on: Jul 06, 2014, 10:15:38 AM »

OldGrezMonke,

It is true that everyone has different experiences. There is no way I would use an old bias ply, even with good tread. Bias ply passenger tires have not been sold for years, so any that are found, are broke down from age and the rubber has become firmer. There would be no traction and cornering would be haphazard.

I prefer the bias ply design, but only if they would be offered with the recent rubber technology compounds. That will never happen, so the radial is what we have to use. The radial design did give a smoother ride and handling in theory was improved. The down side is that new tire is junk when the sidewall belt gives out. Great for tire sales, but not for the consumer. The radial had a slightly mushy feel originally as the tire flex allowed the tire to roll over the tread patch. The reduction in the sidewall height has changed that aspect now. The bias ply has very little to no flex, so would scrub easier when taking corners at speed. Pros and cons exist for both designs. Since any choice was taken away, the radial is the only choice for several years now.

Although apples and oranges comparison, I ran bias ply only on my 4x4 van for 28 years. Never a problem with them as late as the mid 2000's when I finally sold the rolling chassis. 8 ply is completely different than the 4 ply passenger tire. Being a floatation tire design, I could air down when needed and have no adverse tire wear. Bias ply for a truck is what I would still prefer and are available, although the 16.5 is tough to find, just like the 13".

I do not mind adapting. That is what I have done my entire life. When there is not a good alternative, that is not adapting though. The Falcon needs a minimum of 24.5" diameter tire, not 24" or 22.5" to keep 13", that is not adapting. Changing to a 14" is not adapting, just a change to a currently more available rim diameter tire, which will also be phased out. As with any change, the snowball effect takes place. Speedo gears should be changed for a correct reading, locating wheelcovers will be needed, and possibly modifying wheelhousings for clearance. Adapting and change are not always the same concept. Adapting is using a acceptable replacement that has the same specs as the phased out product. The replacement might even be superior to the original. Change on the other hand, is installing parts with different specs. That often requires changing other parts so the replacement can be made to fit and have a similar appearance. The 13" is not the only size being phased out. Some 15" sizes that we need for a couple other mid 60's vehicles have also been dropped and are tough to find in a quality tire.

Tire buying is not so simple anymore. :) It is becoming more difficult to find choices for quality tires, even for a 2011 vehicle we have here with 18" rims. Accepting trade offs and additional cost factors, is not adapting. Change is always a fact of life, but not all changes are positive.

Terry L. Rahn
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jaw1962

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Re: Anybody else still running with 13 in wheels?
« Reply #6 on: Jul 06, 2014, 11:06:49 AM »

I stopped in at TiresPlus and they said I could get a tire from Milestar in the 175/80r size.  I found those same tires listed on eBay.  TirePlus price would be the same as buying off eBay and paying to have them installed, so I have that option.  Your replies have me thinking of mabe going to 185/80 tires.
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Jim
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oldgrezmonke

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Re: Anybody else still running with 13 in wheels?
« Reply #7 on: Jul 06, 2014, 11:34:46 AM »

Terry and I have a slight difference of opinions and viewpoints here but we do pretty well agree that 185/80/13 is just about unavailable - did your tire store indicate they could get some in a passenger car version not a trailer tire because that sure would perk up Terry's day  ;) ?
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First car - 1961 Falcon Deluxe 4door , had 1968-73
Present - 1963 1/2 Falcon 4door base model , since 2009 ,
frequent driver , work in progress
Yes I like 4doors
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jaw1962

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Re: Anybody else still running with 13 in wheels?
« Reply #8 on: Jul 06, 2014, 08:26:53 PM »

yeah, they were passenger tires.
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Jim
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63falconconvert

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Re: Anybody else still running with 13 in wheels?
« Reply #9 on: Jul 07, 2014, 07:17:34 AM »

This is what I'm running on my 63. This was all I could find for these rims.

I also have a set of these in 14" that I want to change to. What size 14" tire would you recommend? These are 14 x 6
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oldgrezmonke

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Re: Anybody else still running with 13 in wheels?
« Reply #10 on: Jul 07, 2014, 09:25:57 AM »

jaw1962 , If they have a good supply of 185/80/13 passenger tires find out what you can - brand , availibilty [are they usually in stock or special order only ?] , what kind of whitewall - because a lot of owners of Falcons and other makes of older cars who want to keep close to the original look would be very interested . Please find out what you can and report back .
63convert , What size are those ? Tire sizes 185/80/13 , 185/75/14** and 195/70/14** will give about the same speedometer/odometer readings . First start by verifying your present speedometer reading and possible error . You can do that with a GPS that has a mph selection , obviously best done with a helper . Take readings when you can maintain a steady speed , a straight level stretch is best , at 10 mph increments [5 mph increments would be even better] from 25-65 or whatever is the legal maxium [or as fast as you ever go] where you live . Samples of readings I took with a GPS borrowed from my son were - [speedo/GPS] 40/37 , 55/51 and 70/66 with my present 175/80/13 tires so a bit of research with an online tire calculator [http://powerdog.com/tiresize.cgi] showed I would best use 195/75/14** to correct my speedometer reading to almost exact . That also puts the engine rpm at 60 in my Falcon almost at it's torque peak which gives best MPGs  ;D . Tire sizes above with ** have good or better availability at the moment . 
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First car - 1961 Falcon Deluxe 4door , had 1968-73
Present - 1963 1/2 Falcon 4door base model , since 2009 ,
frequent driver , work in progress
Yes I like 4doors
Lifetime member # 117 NSRA
Former ASE certified mechanic
FCA member # 13677

Terry L. Rahn

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Re: Anybody else still running with 13 in wheels?
« Reply #11 on: Jul 07, 2014, 10:00:07 AM »

63FalconConvert,

Those 175/70R13 are too small a diameter at 22.6". That is 2" smaller than the original. Your speedo is probably off by quite a bit. With the increase in the rpm with a smaller tire, your cruising speed is limited. The effective gear ratio with those tires and 3.50:1 would be somewhere around 3.73 or maybe higher.

With a 6" rim, I would use the 195/70R14 at 24.7" or the 205/65R14 at 24.5". Those are the closest to original diameter and speedo would be pretty close to accurate. The 205 might be tight to get between the brake drum and lip when mounting. The backspacing of the rim will determine how close to the lip the tires are.

Terry L. Rahn
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63falconconvert

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Re: Anybody else still running with 13 in wheels?
« Reply #12 on: Jul 07, 2014, 10:23:25 AM »

Thanks guys for the feed back. After I installed the C4 6 years ago the speedo was off, then with addition of the "baby buggy" tires it was really off. I changed the speedo gear and got it to within 1 mph at 55 using my GPS.

My plan is to change to 14" tires/rims and to swap the 3:50 rear end for the 3:10 tha I have at home.

Right now at 60 MPH my tach is at 2600 RPM!!!! My little 200 is screaming lol
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Veach

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Re: Anybody else still running with 13 in wheels?
« Reply #13 on: Jul 07, 2014, 02:46:04 PM »

I ran the P215/70R14 on my Wagon for Years before going with the V8
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Terry L. Rahn

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Re: Anybody else still running with 13 in wheels?
« Reply #14 on: Jul 07, 2014, 11:01:22 PM »

Veach,

The 215 is a 8" wide sidewall. That must have been interesting to get between the drum and lip, unless you drooped the shock to get additional droop. The round body wagon is not a very large stock wheelhousing, so a almost 26" tire had to be close to the dogleg.

Anything can be made to fit, if a person is willing to make it.

Terry L. Rahn
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